Curse

Loviatar · Mar 22, 2006, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by mqstout

"Maybe an online game just isnt for you."

I purchased GW because it was supposed to be devoid of the things they're adding now; that PvP was an alternate mode and would not be integrated with PvE like in all those other online games where you can't walk 10 feet without being killed by someone. We're sufficiently OT enough that I'll stop here.

cheer up.

sometime ago i sent a pm to Alex Weekes of NCsoft on this as i PVE only and asked if chapter 2 would force me to pvp to complete it .

his response was

Quote:

NO but doing so might enhance your experience.

pvp will still be in specified arenas and not within the general population of a town.

just because a faction has control of a city does not mean that everybody not with that faction is locked out from the city it simply means that some very elite quests are not available to you at this time.

what all the locked out content screamers are forgetting is that you may be locked out of this towns elite quests for the moment but all the elite quests available in towns your faction is holding at the moment are available to you

Siren · Mar 22, 2006, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

"relies more heavily upon killing NPC’s or monsters "

So HoH isn't really PvP, since killing the other team dosn't matter. All that matters is who's ghostly hero is holding the alter when time hits zero. PvE, totaly. Getting there is PvP, but the final win is soooo PvE. Winning in HoH relies more healvly on controlling, and killing a NPC than killing the other team.

Hmmmm, thats what you guys are trying to say, right?

A race is PvP, any mission where some human controlled player is working against me is PvP. If the sucess of another team causes the defeat of my team, than it is PvP. I'm not really sure where you guys are trying to go with this.

PvE is player against enviroment, and only enviroment. Suscess of the mission depends on the skill of your team, and nothing else. PvP is any encounter where the skill of a team, or player works against you. The better they are, the harder your team has it, that is PvP.

Your point fails when we make a very important distinction:

In HoH, you're directly facing another team (or teams), in addition to needing to keep the Ghostly Hero alive so you can cap the altar.

In the Factions missions we're seeing here, you're directly facing a team of NPCs, and another human team just happens to be racing you there. I would imagine this is similar to the Zaishen fight that decides how much morale you get, before you enter HA.

In some ways, the Factions game is a hybrid, but more leaning on the side of PvE, because you are literally going up against NPCs and the environment. I don't know if the other human teams really matter all that much to that end, because there have been times where my team just didn't click versus the Zaishen in HA, just like I'm sure there will be times where something doesn't go right for those missions in Factions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgstout

I tried PvP. It was no fun whatsoever.

Yes, but you haven't tried what Factions has to offer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

pvp will still be in specified arenas and not within the general population of a town.

just because a faction has control of a city does not mean that everybody not with that faction is locked out from the city it simply means that some very elite quests are not available to you at this time.

what all the locked out content screamers are forgetting is that you may be locked out of this towns elite quests for the moment but all the elite quests available in towns your faction is holding at the moment are available to you

Loviatar gets a cookie. ^_^

zoozoc · Mar 22, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

hm...yes you may benefit more by killing npcs, but if you see a bnuch of enemies, your not just gonna let them do whatever, especially if they are defending/attacking something of yours, and the "quick" respawn could be every minute, or you could respawn pretty far from your current destination, so killing other characters will probably still help, you just wont want to go around only killing them.

Katari · Mar 22, 2006, 04:43 AM // 04:43

So downhill skiing isn't competitive because the skiiers don't actualy physicaly race eachother? Races aren't competetive? What if there was a contest to see who could the "Master of Healing" the fastest, would that be PvE because you're not actualy hitting eachother?

If another team's suscess cause my failure then I consider it to be PvP. Actual contact between teams is irrelevent. What is relevent is that the skill of the oposing team effects the mission's difficulty for my team. If that is the case, and if that has some signifigant impact on the results I get out of the mission, then it is PvP.

Siren · Mar 22, 2006, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

So downhill skiing isn't competitive because the skiiers don't actualy physicaly race eachother? Races aren't competetive? What if there was a contest to see who could the "Master of Healing" the fastest, would that be PvE because you're not actualy hitting eachother?

If another team's suscess cause my failure then I consider it to be PvP. Actual contact between teams is irrelevent. What is relevent is that the skill of the oposing team effects the mission's difficulty for my team. If that is the case, and if that has some signifigant impact on the results I get out of the mission, then it is PvP.

Now we're talking about downhill skiing being not competitive? What kinds of counter-arguments are these, seriously? Are people here running out of counters that quickly that they need to reply with something that doesn't even remotely relate at all to previous points?

Katari, please re-read my post. I never argued that it wasn't competitive. What I argued was that the missions we're reading about in Factions are neither purely PvP nor PvE. They're a combination--a hybrid--that happens to lean more toward PvE, because the enemies you're facing are NPCs. There is nothing more to it than that.

HoH is a similar type of hybrid, if only because it features the Ghostly Hero. But the core of HoH is facing human opponents (unless you happen to face Henchway). You take out the Ghostly Hero, okay, you've stopped the other team from capping the altar. But you haven't beaten them, because there's still one very important detail: the other team's human players are still alive. That's why HoH is a gameplay type that's more a PvP component. Because the player-to-player combat is the focus.

Factions hybrid missions are completely different. You have absolutely no human players to kill. Even if you found some way to kill them, you'd still have one very important detail: the enemy NPCs are still alive. That's why these Factions hybrid missions lean more toward PvE--that's why they're more a PvE component. Because the player-to-computer combat is the focus.

This has been explained ad nauseum multiple redundant times, across close to half a dozen threads at this point, and it is not difficult to understand if you just think about it, instead of wanting something to complain about.

Minus Sign · Mar 22, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

To answer the OP, PvE, Competitive or not, will doubtless require PvE characters.

I think the real question is: how many missions will be Competitive PvE? If we're just talking about missions that are "linked" to a certain hard PvP/GvG battle or map, then I don't understand the problem. In this context, it is an addition fo content for people who like to PvP but prefer to spend their time killing mobs or middle-of-the-road types like me, neither wholely PvE or hard into PvP. It also increses the replay value to such people, adding another facit of play than just kill other folks/farm your brains out. Now I have another reason to replay the same mission over and over OTHER than just helping my guildies through it.

If the majority of PvE missions are going to be Competitive PvE, then yes, I worry. Instead of adding content to a user base that is well established and, frankly, stinking rich from farming Anet has ostricized their users and many of the best players in Guild Wars PvE. Time to find a new game if thats the case and watch Guild Wars die a slow death over the next year.

But if they have just increased content, keeping plenty of PvE only areas open for the roleplayers who have flocked to Guild Wars and an assortment of PvP arenas for those who want to kill each other while adding Competitive PvE for those who swing both ways (keep your head outa the gutter) then I don't see what all the fuss is about.

=HT=Ingram · Mar 22, 2006, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Yea they made that mistake back in the beta when several of us (myself included) was able to spawn in presearing with our PvP character from the weekend prior. And suddenly there were PvP characters in the PvE world.. It really wasn't that big a deal as it was just a beta and everything was being reset anyway. But still, They will not make that mistake a second time. Part of the reason PvP got its own map area was to prevent such glitches in the future.

They made a similar error with the Observer mode / Guild hall exploit getting stuff both from and too Presearing... But it was fixed in a matter of days of it being reported with only limited exposure.

Vermilion Okeanos · Mar 22, 2006, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Well, chasing back to the orgin of PvP and PvE.

PvP = Player versus Player
PvE = Player versus Enviorment

Opponent team is filled with Players, who you are competeting against.
Your objective is to kill NPC, which is usually counted as Enviorment... until they are escorted by opponent Players.

So, it is a PvPvE.

torquemada · Mar 22, 2006, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Hmm...I'd say broaden the view people!

Competitive PvE is something I really look forward to.

Reasons are:

1. I don't do much PvP besides CA/TA and even that only occasionaly (as said before, I believe in "play to win" motto - and I don't have time, TS/vent, guild support etc.) So I'm stuck because I don't have time and will to go rank farming. I don't want to be half-a-pvp player, if you get my meaning. If I go pvp, I wanna go all the way and the fact is I just can't.

2. Sounds like loads of fun!

3. Experienced PvE players get to shine in actual competitive play where you don't play in somewhat (please don't get me wrong) sterile 4v4/8v8 microcosmos. There's lots of lore to be used when not concentrating to annihilate super-tweaked survival builds but how to annihilate huge loads of stupid but overpowering mobs. Farming some areas got a little competitive on the boards already, don't ya think? Whos farming what with minimal players and maxed out builds.I think it will be excellent for PvE'ers - not actually combating other players but competing in PvE objectives. REALLY looking forward to that one!

Also, you get some great replay value (similar to pvp), IMO.

mqstout · Mar 22, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

But, our success or failure still is determined not by us, but by the other player team(s) involved in the mission. That is not at all PvE gameplay, no matter how you spin it.

Guardian of the Light · Mar 22, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

A new breed of players is born! The PvPvEers.

Mordakai · Mar 22, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Well, I gotta say, I'm really excited. I'm not a hardcore PvPer, but this sounds like a great way to make missions fun to do over and over again.

Siren · Mar 22, 2006, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by mqstout

But, our success or failure still is determined not by us, but by the other player team(s) involved in the mission. That is not at all PvE gameplay, no matter how you spin it.

Who's spinning it? I know I'm not. All I'm doing is explaining the descriptions. I listened to the Jeff Strain interview last night. Anybody who still says these Factions missions are actually PvP need to listen to that interview. Anybody who still says these Factions missions are actually PvP after listening to that interview need to kill themselves, to borrow a line from Carlos Mencia, because they're either;

A) A waste of life.

or

B) Completely braindead.

Other people in this thread are getting the hybrid nature of these missions. So that means it's not some bizarre, outlandish, inaccessible idea. Which means mgstout understands it, but he just doesn't want to say he understands it.

And torguemada makes a nice point regarding competitiveness in PvE already. Why do PvErs like FoW armor? Or 15k armor? Because it's something shiny that sets them apart from everyone else. And what is that? That's a competitive streak!

torquemada · Mar 22, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

I agree, but let's not get negative, please.

Look, mqstout, let's put it in different perspective, ok?

I know PvP community is somewhat less then friendly to the casual player. And I know it's an understatement. I know you're afraid these type of gameplay will ruin your, presumably, leisure style of play.

But what really really changes?
If you join a bad team you gonna lose missions even in existing GW. We all know how many god-forsaken crap PUG's there are out there screaming for mission failure.

Why do you think it's going to be otherwise for Factions? If you join a good team it's gonna be rewarding (even if you lose - and if you say it's not rewarding if you lose then you are competitive already). If you get a bad team, you'll lose. Just see how many griefers THK generates...

It's PvE with different measurements, similar to hard (WARNING:definition of hard mission may vary). If you lose to ultrafreaky experienced team you'll try again and chances are another team you'll face will suck at it. Similar to finding an ordinary PUG nowdays. From what I gather, you'll be less then likely to engage them in real PvP.

Since this kind of missions do not promote direct PvP (no DP I think, and I'm thinking, if enemy team just wants to stand by res point and grief you I can bet there is mechanism to punish that) it's more replayable PvE. + GG and all of that.

Just put it in different perspective, and remember what ole Ben Gesserit wenches never fail to mention - Fear is the mind-killer.

TimeCatalyst · Mar 22, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11

The fact that this is even up for discussion baffles the hell out of me...

Quote:

Now we're talking about downhill skiing being not competitive? What kinds of counter-arguments are these, seriously? Are people here running out of counters that quickly that they need to reply with something that doesn't even remotely relate at all to previous points?

His point relates directly to what everyone is talking about. He's drawing an example to illustrate what competition is. There's no such thing as a PvP PvE hybrid. PvP doesn't strictly mean "directly fight each other." You compete with others, it's PvP... period. You can't rationalize an existence of a hybrid system. It's impossible. The moment you add any form of player competition, it's PvP and ceases to be PvE.

Under the definition of what you say a "hybrid system" is; Unreal Tournament's Capture the Flag and Double Domination matches would be considered "hybrid." And I'm 100% sure that nearly everyone here would agree they definitively ARE PvP modes.

Being a PvP enthusiast is perfectly fine. I prefer PvP in WoW, but PvE in GW myself. I'm just trying say that PvEers are pissed because they are forced to compete inspite of the fact that they were drawn to GW with promises that this would never happen. Just cut them/us some slack. Not everyone is out for cyber-blood.

Siren · Mar 22, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimeCatalyst

The fact that this is even up for discussion baffles the hell out of me...

Same here, because it's completely obvious people have gotten worked up over this for nothing.

Quote:

His point relates directly to what everyone is talking about. He's drawing an example to illustrate what competition is.

And what did I say in my previous post? I never argued anything relating to competition. Are people just not reading these days?

Quote:

There's no such thing as a PvP PvE hybrid.

Yes there is, and we'll see it in Factions. Gasp!

See, here's where the fun is in this thread. People are trying to deny the existence of a new gameplay type, even though it's clear as hell that the new gameplay type exists. You can listen to the interview with Jeff Strain and he explains it. Will people here come to their senses and remove their heads from the sand?

TimeCatalyst · Mar 22, 2006, 05:43 PM // 17:43

I meant I was baffled that there was angrument about the definition of PvP.

Quote:

And what did I say in my previous post? I never argued anything relating to competition. Are people just not reading these days?

I'm talking about how you said his point was completely unrelated when clearly it is VERY related. And please curtail the demeaning remarks.

Quote:

Yes there is, and we'll see it in Factions. Gasp!

No, there is not. My previous UT explaination stands. You're drawing conclusions from someone's public statement who's job it is to dress up the product he's promoting. Fundamentally, there's nothing here that no one's ever done before. It can be conceptually reduced to Capture the Flag or King of the Hill. And if you can't see that, then who's head's in the sand?

MSecorsky · Mar 22, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

You all missed the most important point.

There's going to be amber.

CKaz · Mar 22, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

I just wish the FPE (or like everything ANet says/does) was clearer or had more information. So now that I've decided to kill my Monk can I still do what I want to this weekend or not? Or to experience it in full do I need a PvE slot for the Cantha content and then a PvP slot to try the new BattleIsle experience. Or are we saying there isn't anything new there? Can the new classes go/any of the new skills/any of the new battle types -there-? I had that impression - perhaps it's a bad one. Guess I'll find out in a couple days.

Guess I'll focus on one then the other if so but lordly they like spreading us thin - IMO.

Mordakai · Mar 22, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

I guess the ultimate question is: Do people who don't want to play these new hybrid missions have to? And when I say have to, I mean in order to unlock skills or advance the storyline.

Or are these just Faction Gathering (and Amber Gathering

) sub-missions, with cosmetic effects, but not necessary to play to enjoy the game.

Of course, I would urge all to try the missions first before deciding they are not fun to play...